Continuing my teeth obsession I was after opinions as to level and scissor bites.

As I understand it, the UK deerhound standard asks for a complete scissor bite whereas the US standard I think states that level or scissor bites are acceptable. I appreciate the need for a strong under jaw but what's the benefit of a scissor bite compared with a level bite?

Sorry if there's a really obvious answer here. Just something I wanted to understand a bit more fully. Thanks Elise

Less wear and tear on incisor teeth and more efficient for a whelping bitch to bite through umbilical cords without damaging the whelp - that's what I was told, anyway.

I would imagine there's a knock-on effect on ability to hold prey, not so much because of the bite itself, as what it implies for the ratio of upper to lower jaw length. But then you're getting into the realms of head proportions and neck strength.

I agree with "less wear and tear" than a level bite would cause as Sid posits I also believe that a good scissor bite is the most efficient cutting bite for the incisors; therefore nature's result over time. Some also suggest that the scissor bite keeps the teeth aligned.

It's also interesting that some breeds are specifically bred to have an undershot bite like Bulldogs, Boxers etc.

I was under the impression that the scissor bite allowed the hound to strip the length of the spine when hunting.

Not much input from my side ; just , that I always thought , that " level bite " is , what wild canines ( wolves/coyotes ) have and somehow we humans "came up " with the scissor bite . I have not many ideas which one would be " better " or why . Over or/and under shot is harder on them for sure - might make it impossible e.g. for the female to deal with her puppies on her own , right after birth I mean - something I consider essential . But then , most of the breeds with those abnormalities can't even whelp on their own anymore anyways - which is a shame in itself imo.

A hound must have a scissor bit, a level bite in in my view is a very bad fault and just one step away from us accepting undershot. A hound must be able to tear flesh
please see the link I have posted and look at the wolves jaw ( you will have to scroll down)


Irish Wolfhound in there standard now say level bite is acceptable but not preferred I really hope we never change our standard away from a correct and necessary scissor bite.
Its people trying to change breed standards therefore changing a breed to suit there stock they maybe own and thats not a good enough reason.


Sorry I cant get the link to post but here is a photo of a wolfs mouth

That's interesting - I have a couple of coyote skulls at home , look basically like scissor bite from the side but when you look from the front , it is a level bite - I also recall drawings ( after pics , taken by a scientist who researched /lived with several Dingos some decades ago in Germany ) from Dingo bites , also level and I found this one here ( drawing of a wolve muzzle/skull ) , from a webpage where they talk about the strength ( and job !- basically exactly as you say , holding /breakig/tearing off ) of the bite/teeth/muzzle of wolves . So , perhaps both occurs in nature.

Thanks very much appreciated. Therefore, the implication would be that a level bite should be penalised. Thanks Elise

A friend of mine who is a vet has a good friend who is a veterinary canine dental specialist so I asked her!
She says that a scissor bite is the norm with a canine and a level bite puts tremendous strain on the jaw and supporting ligaments thus causing the animal a lack of efficiency plus discomfort. In her opinion a level bite is a term used gloss over a malocclusion ( abnormal bite) of the jaw. It should be avoided at all costs and in her opinion is introduced into breed standards in other countries to allow breeders to continue breeding from stock that should not be bred from.
Interesting!

liza wrote:



I totally agree with these comments and I personally regard it as a very serious fault, and for sure it has a genetic disposition the same as an undershot jaw.

I also believe breed standards in IW were changed to allow what I regard as a fault, however this comes back to my Factor 7 thread were we carried out the health survey

In a breed with a small gene pool, Hereditary Heart disease, bone cancer, and liver shunt (which has been proven hereditary in many breeds including the wolfhound (and therefore why would it not apply to the Deerhound)
Are the major killers in both young and old, an experienced breeder may decide to use a dog with a level bite, that is proven to come from a bloodline that is free from the above and I think this may have happened in the wolfhound (I am not 100 % sure) but some wolfhounds now do have a level bite, not only is it a disability to the dog, it also changes the whole head shape and therefore type. and type is the marker for the breed.

Elise wrote:


I presume you mean if you are judging?

Ardneish wrote:


Yes, I wanted to know about the benefit of scissor bites in the light of US deerhound standards, and as you mentioned other hound breeds, accepting level bites.

I'm finding this thread very helpful. Thanks Elise

PS I'm generally interested in teeth in terms of keeping our 14 year old lurcher's and the deerhounds teeth in respectable condition as per earlier posts.

The IW standard says acceptable but NOT Preferred, its caused quite a division.

I recently attended a Judging exam and seminar on the IW, I placed the one hound with a level bite 4 out of 4, he was not an outstanding exhibit in other areas, had this been the case I think I would of still put him fourth.

By accepting bad bites as a judge you are telling exhibitors that its ok, which it in my view its far from OK its a health issue and must be penalized. it has a hereditary nature.

(and now with all the furore over Pedigree dogs in the press )due to breeders changing KC standards over the last 100 years to suit there own stock, because that was easier than breeding good healthy examples, encouraging exaggeration detrimental to the breeds health lets hope we do not ever change the deerhound standard to say its acceptable.

When judging its to the KC breed standard we must look too. otherwise the breed we love will change beyond all recognition as other breeds have.

Well , if I was a judge I would of course - and would have to - to stick to the standard . But here I go , I strongly disagre with the opiion that a level bite puts extra strain on the jaws - really , it is normal for wild canines to have level bites , see the attached wolf skull pic and , e.g. Hyeanas , who have the strongest bite pwower of any hunters/scavengers ( yes , they do a lot of huting themselves ! ) do have level bites - lots of holding , ripping and tearing going on there . When I imagine tearing off flesh I'd think , it would go at least as easily with a level bite if not easier - and grooming , esp. looking for fleas ,should be really easier for animals with a level bite . This all is in no way meant to start up a discussion about standards , just a few thoughts about practicabilty and other things ( who knows how the scissor bites originally came to be....).

http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Dog/dog.htm

I cannot seem to put a link on here Vernenav the photo you have posted note that it is sloping backwards not level, I wonder if it were put level I think it maybe a scissor bite ( hope this makes sense)
here is another photo of a wolf skull clearly showing a scissor bite

the one below is a coyote skull clearly showing a scissor bite. Note the flatter skull, than the photo above,higher occiputal bones draw the jaw up to make more of a level bite on the african hunting dog that evolved to be both carnivore and herbivore in the african plains

If we look back at pure bred dogs 80 years ago eg the bulldog at that time they had a functioning jaw, and respiratory tract, now they do not, caused by people wanting exaggeration, and people with personal ambitions in the show ring that seem to rise above concern for health issues and fit for function and who have changed breed standards to suit their own stock, a way for them to win with exaggerated dogs I really hope and pray we do not do that over here in the UK to our beloved Deerhound.

Grey wolf skull

Manned wolf skull

Gray fox skull

I would of thought the canine developed from the Grey wolf which is thought to come from Euroasia www.wolfcountry.net/infor...olfOrigins.html


when we get to african hunting dogs etc, they have more of a level bite because of there raised frontal bones, which evoloution in the wild has developed to suit their hunting style and environment

I will try to do some more research, I think Hyena are more related to cats apparantly

Quote www.lionking.org/~tiger/real.htm

Hyenas are, like all Carnivores, descended from Cimolestes, a small, rodent-similar animal, living 58 million years ago. It was the first of all animals who developed a form of teeth working like breaking scissors. And these teeth were the important point to make the carnivores as powerful as they are today. Well, hyenas are more related to felines than to canines although their look is closer to the canines. Hyenas developed in an era called miozen (or similar) in Eurasia ( Europe and Asia were one continant to this time). The earliest real hyena
was an animal called Plioviverrops, living 20-22 millions of years ago. You can identify a hyena by watching her middle ear and the teeth. Plioviverrops is supposed that it climbed trees and had feline similar claws to hold tight. Its food was little vertebrates, fruits, poison plants, millipedes and carrions. The line of its descendents developed running to a point-snouts and long legs, so they looked similar to canines.
Like the canines, the hyenas succeeded evelution and at their dream time, 15 million years ago, there were 30 or more different kinds of hyenas in the Old World (meant is Eurasia, without Australia and America ). They weren't specialized and had teeth with which they could eat both, meat and fruits. They lived in pairs and with territories, and there was no size difference between the sexes. Probalbly a few of the canide-similar hyenas lived in groupes, like wolves, too.
But then, 5-7 million years ago, the real canides came to Eurasia, using the Bering-Bridge between today Alaska and Russia. That started the desaster of the hyenas, they died away, caused by the rivalry of the real canides and a problem with a climat change. The 22 kinds of canides here in Europe were earlier the replaced of the canin-similar hyenas.
The climate change dried the Mediteranien Sea and opened the door to Africa. The big hebivores, who were the dominant kind of prey, became replaced by smaller and quicker antilope-similar kinds of animals, because the jungel turned into wide savannas. So the hunters had to adapt, too. Because of the many excrements the savanna was the home of many insects, too, among them termites. Well, one of the early hyenas speacialized on eating termites, 15 million years ago. His descendents were lucky, because they survived the desaster and matched their only canid rival, (I don't know his English name). This hyenas are the ancestors of the today Aardwolf, the only termite eating hyena, very pretty striped.
The other hyenas developed another ability, they splitted bones ( that's why they are often seen with bones in "The Lion King" I think). 15 million years ago, the hyenas began to develope teeth for splitting bones, wich meant the decline of the Percrocutoids, a probably canide kind of bone splitting animals. 12-10 million years ago, the two lines of hyenas, the canide-similar hyenas and the bone-splitting ones, existed in Eurasia. The bone splitters were mobile opportunists, probably scavenging, but huntung, too. When the canide similar hyenas became extinct, their moment of glory arrived and they filled in their places in Eurasia. In the Old World ( America was dominated by canides, so exept of 1-2 kinds no hyena moved there) they were an incredible success in scavenging. One hyena called Pachycrocuta, weight 200 kg and was able to splitt the bones of an elephant. Funny, he was the ancestor of our spotted hyenas.

Sorry If I am boring you all

Ok last bit I promise

It appears the coyote origin is different to the grey wolf

Its all here in this link

www.museum.state.il.us/ex...rson/canis.html

Thanks for all the research Betina ! I think , it just goes to show that in nature both occur , both work - I found the scissor description for Hyeana teeth rather for the way their molares work , shearing ( and the molares look like scissors of course ! ),and one of the wolf sculls you posted is the way my coyote sculls here look - like scissor from the side , but in the end level ( if one looks at the front teeth from the front ) .I also have the feeling that the bites do change when (wild canines )they age . I am not at all that invested in this topic , only had learned it differently ( to regards to wild canines , noting that foxes are the most distinctive of the wild ones ) and can not really imagine why one would be better than the other . As long as we do not go into over -or under bites I have the feeling all is quite well and functional , deerhounds should have the dentition asked for in the standard , there is no reason to change it - and, there is ,imo , also no reason to declare the scissor bite the only truly functional one .

I dont think you can compare the coyote as its origin is totally different to the grey wolf which is Eurasian , and coyote north American

All I know is a hound with a level bite and canine sized incisors cannot tear flesh as a hound with a scissor bite I also if I put my teeth into a level position cannot tear my bread roll as if my teeth are in a scissor bite, I could munch and graze with a level bite but I could not tear as I could with a scissor bite.

I think I have put enough out there now. I know someone who looks after Grey wolves so I will ask him his opinion, but I have a feeling I know what it will be.

Interesting and as usual lovely speaking with you, am of up the " Apples and pears"
Night night

I dont think you can compare the coyote as its origin is totally different to the grey wolf which is Eurasian , and coyote north American

All I know is a hound with a level bite and canine sized incisors cannot tear flesh as a hound with a scissor bite also a level bite is indicates higher accept and frontal bones which change the whole head shape ( hence type) I also if I put my teeth into a level position cannot tear my bread roll as if my teeth are in a scissor bite, I could munch and graze with a level bite but I could not tear as I could with a scissor bite.

I think I have put enough out there now. I know someone who looks after Grey wolves so I will ask him his opinion, but I have a feeling I know what it will be.

Interesting and as usual lovely speaking with you, would be a boring life if we all thought the same, am of up the " Apples and pears"
Night night x

Just had to come and add that no one has more respect than me for you knowledge, as I know your hounds are worked in the most testing countryside imaginable and I for one am often humbled by your knowledge.

x