Border terriers Deerhounds Irish Wolfhounds Wheaten Terriers Norfolk Tumblers and others have lost certain colours over the last 100 years does anyone know why?
And why so many breeds?

From what I gather we lost the colours because people (breeders/hunters/judges) believed that the darks/grey's were better in function and performance. It is such a shame as I would love a red with black points.
It is also mentioned though that the dark hounds had a poor coat as in too thick and no length.
I think most of it comes down to fads of the time but unfortunately the other coours got lost in time.

Hello,

I also believe that this is a result of breeding and selection.

Best regards
Joerg and Yoki

hairybeasty wrote:
Border terriers Deerhounds Irish Wolfhounds Wheaten Terriers Norfolk Tumblers and others have lost certain colours over the last 100 years does anyone know why?
And why so many breeds?

Hairy beasty

Can you be more specific with regard to " lost colours" in

Borders

Deerhounds

IW,S

Wheaten?

Norfolk tumblers ( do you mean present day norfolk terrier and norwich?)

did you mention dandies I was a student at Bellmead training school for kennelmaids in 1971 it was then the top kennel of dandies

What colours do you think are missing from the above breed?
thankyou

OK. Now I stick my neck out and admit that I know very little on this topic other than what I have read and heard.
According to Anne Roslyn Williams "the bright red with black masks" in the border terrier world "were common 40 years ago when she started showing" and the " true wheaten colour has almost certainly been lost". She also states that the "liver nosed border terrier is very rare now" and she's not seen one since "working certificate holder Strider the Rockranger b.1984"
IW's according to posts on this thread were once "warm coloured but are now less common".
I have heard that Deerhounds were once found in a "Red variant with black points " but I understand that these too have disappeared from the genepool.
Norfolk and Tumblers are an ancient breed of Lurcher created by breeding Bearded collies with Deerhounds{I may be wrong here} that had long coats to disguise their true conformation as they were primarily a poacher's dog These were often sandy brown or grizzle. Also a lot less common.
Dont know anything about the Dandie Dinmont other than it's in the make-up of the border {coquetdale}terrier. Only ever seen one and that was breed standard.
Hoping that you or someone else can shed some light??

Just seen that there is the same discussion in the Deerhound History section from 8 months ago but it was never finished.

I saw that;
benjaminphotography.blogs pot.com/

There seem to be more wheaten irish wolfhounds in NZ than grey ones!!

Now that's interesting...

Here in Melbourne about 15 years ago there were quite a few wheaten IW's but now they all seem to be grey. I think the person who bred the weatens retired and stopped breeding and it must be very much a line thing, perhaps that's why we lost the colour in Deerhounds, the people who had those lines stopped breeding.

Pam

That's a real shame. It's not that I have anything against the grey Deerhound as I have one myself just that there is space within the breed for other colours. What does the UK breed standard say about colour?

hairybeasty wrote:
That's a real shame. It's not that I have anything against the grey Deerhound as I have one myself just that there is space within the breed for other colours. What does the UK breed standard say about colour?
Hi hairybeasty,this from the Kennel Club regarding colour,taken from the breed standard.

Dark blue-grey,darker and lighter greys or brindles and yellows,sandy-red or red-fawns with black points.A white chest,white toes and a slight white tip to the sern are permissible,but the less white the better,since it is a self-coloured dog.A white blaze on the head or white collar unacceptable.

Oh okay. Quite right too as too much white would obviously point to over use of collie blood.So if the KC accept those other colours why arent there more of them? I cant believe that a lighter dog would run any less fast or have a different temperament.

Just my two penn'orth - based on no in depth knowledge whatsoever - when our two are out free running on the hills and in 'brushy' ground, they are almost impossible to see. In fact, they are sometimes really close and I find myself muttering 'where the heck has that dog gone?'. Perhaps the paler colours were just too easy for the deer to see.

That is a good point. It may have been perceived that the grey's were better hunters because they were better camoflaged rather than the sandy's and reds. Interesting point. Still a shame though

I find it amazing that for a breed that has not worked since the early 1900's how much the working lines may have affected the modern day hound.I wonder what will happen over the next 100 years...

I seem to recall reading somewhere that when the breed was at it'a lowest ebb in the 19th century many lines were crossed with other breeds so perhaps the greys were the purest avialable. The Wolfhounds must get their colours from the Great Dane and Mastiff used in their re-creation. I do agree though that's a great shame that we lost the colours.

Pam

I heard of a red deerhound born here a few years ago. Because the dog was pet stock the owner went and had it neutered, much to the dismay of the local deerhound community as they would have wanted to try for a litter or two with him to see if they could have gotten the line going again.

I do hope the yellows and reds didn't disappear as a result of fashion in the show ring but I have a suspicion that that was the cause.

Jacobite wrote:
I seem to recall reading somewhere that when the breed was at it'a lowest ebb in the 19th century many lines were crossed with other breeds so perhaps the greys were the purest avialable. The Wolfhounds must get their colours from the Great Dane and Mastiff used in their re-creation. I do agree though that's a great shame that we lost the colours.

Pam

Is that fact that IW's are from mastiff and great dane stock outcrossed to other breeds?

Ironstone wrote:
I heard of a red deerhound born here a few years ago. Because the dog was pet stock the owner went and had it neutered, much to the dismay of the local deerhound community as they would have wanted to try for a litter or two with him to see if they could have gotten the line going again.

I do hope the yellows and reds didn't disappear as a result of fashion in the show ring but I have a suspicion that that was the cause.


It will never cease to amaze me how something so un-important as fashion affects the future of anything( if your statement is indeed fact.)