During the last threads we noticed that puppy buyers have certain expectations
but do not ask for them. Having said so, we also realised that there are many Deerhound-owners around which are not even members of "a" Deerhound-Club. Otherwise they would receive some informative information’s.
Anyhow, the question is: What does a puppy-buyer expect from the breeder?

I would expect honesty - I cant and will not go into details on here but a breeder was not entirely truthful with me and I resent that I was taken for a fool!

after sales advice if necessary and paper evidence of test results ect

I agree with Houndy - as someone who has just had their first litter I have taken into account the health/welfare of the pups, the breed standard, pedigrees, purpose. I have tried to provide accurate, reliable, honest information to everyone who has made a puppy enquiry. That's all I could do

It's nice to give a buyer a binder of their new puppy's particulars such as a picture of each of the parents, pedigrees, contract of sale, official kennel club certificate, medical record, hm, what else? Copy of the breed standard.

Perhaps we need to start a sort of check list here.

Personally not bothered about paperwork although it is a nice bonus.
What I expect is well socialised pups that arent scared of their own shadow.
Properly wormed would be good.

Like Houndy, honesty. I also want support if there is ever a problem. I have been so incredibly lucky and fortunate to have breeders like Dave and Pam, and Helen who are always there when you need them. I remember Dave telling me that I could call any time, day or night if I ever needed advice or help (luckily they are night owls ).
Breeders like that are invaluable and become such good friends. They love their dogs and the breed and will do what they can for them.
I can only aspire to be like them if/when I start to breed.

What i would expect from a breeder is healthy happy pups
as well as mother being healthy and happy, and any relavent tests done
on the pups that are needed,

someone whos friendly and will sit down and chat with you before
you take the pup home, especaly with first time owners,
will supply you with as much info as you need,
and be there when needed, for first timers in to a breed, it can be dawnting(sp)
even contacting a breeder - even just for a chat, if the breeder seems like there in to much of a rush, without giving an explanation, then it would probably put me off
even going in to that breed.

one thing i dont see a lot of, is microchips,
the pup would have to be microchiped, Layla was done by her breeder
and tbh its the one thing i havent changed over yet,
when i do, i will be keeping her breeders details on it, as a back up,
breeders can insist that the microchip is kept in there name,
but the new owners can have there name added on as well, i would like to see that happen
at least if anything happened - like the pup was dumped or anything like that
then the breeder would always know if anything happend to one of there pups.

I have to agree with Jane regarding the Microchip, that should already be done and the name of the Breeder should be on file as well, as a contact information in case a Hound gets lost -

mine actually came in that way, micro-chipped, and a whole file on him with it - Pedigree, Health Certificates, Registration papers of the Kennel & the Dog itself.


I had numerous conversations with Breeders all over the world and welcomed their interrogation as to my person - but did exactly the same with them.

It was important to me to find out the philosophy behind the Kennel and also looked into the efforts that were taken to bring new lines into the breeding process. That eliminated a few immediately from my list.....

I'd also expect the Breeder to follow up on a regular basis as to the health of the dog and discuss any questions a new owner might have. That seems to be not the standard and somewhat neglected -
and don't get blinded by the records or achievements and trophies that were won - that does not mean anything nor will it give credibility - as I have learned.

Well that's my 2 cents

Thomas

I think , I expect a whole lot of a breeder meanwhile - first , I need to know , that they keep all their dogs well , that the dam of the litter has a good life , is not a kennel dog , has a good temperament and is healthy ( and , if they own the father , too , he equally of course ! ) .
I want the puppies to be well socialised, happy and the puppy"kennel/place " to be clean and big and interesting enough for them to develop brains and skills from the get go . At least the 1rst set of vaccines is important , too - then ID , not really important to me though ( can have it done myself - did so with 2 imports , also 2nd puppy vacc and deworming can all bedone here naturally , and , much later , rabies of course )- and , info about whatever health tests they did (parents/pups) .
I love a binder with info about the kennel , how they got started , their goals and some " personal info " about that particular litter a.s.o. - got it from the last 2 breeders I bought puppies from , that was really sweet .
Most of all though , I love a breeder who will take responsibility , is there for me and the pup , also one , who sais " if anything is going to happen and you have to rehome the dog , I am the first you have to ask , I am there for the for their entire lives " .
In short , I want a breeder who really cares and loves their dogs deeply and , who is honest enough to talk about possible problems in their line . And , I want a breeder with not too many dogs resp. litters - but this goes back to " quality of life " of the parent(s).

verenav wrote:


Some great points verenav but surely all this vaccination and heath testing will either rescrict those breeding to those with serious money(therefore restricting the gene pool further)or push up the price of pups?

chook wrote:


At least in Australia, microchipping is compulsory for all registered pups.

Mine are all chipped, but there are some who prefer to tatoo. I would think it OK as long as it is identifiable

Hi Hairybeasty , I think , I want much less done on the puppies as most others would like or as it is necessary in many countries to even get them registered . One set of puppy shots is not too much to ask - I am more than prepared to give the 2nd one myself as a buyer , that is what I meant and also do the microchipping myself and and and , not all puppybuyers are prepared to do so or responsible enough .
As a breeder , I personally think , I would test my female for at least heartdisease +factor 7 before breeding her - I would not breed to a female younger than letss say 3-3.5 years old , by then livershunt should be ruled out and , I think I would also like the male to be tested for both , just to make sure to not breed 2 affected hounds or 2 carriers together .
As for the price of puppies , as far as I heard , it is really expensive to rear them properly , you have to put quite some time and foodand other care into mom and pups ; I am a firm believer that feeding/raising them - and their mom - with the best you can afford will help them a lot for the reminder of their lifes . Also , not all breedings take , you have to pay the stud fee/travel/insemination costs , you have to have the land or access too it and enough room in your house for those big dogs ,and , imo , you have to be prepared to keep the/some of the pups for several months if the right homes do not pop up automatically . Then think , that my youngest is out of a - thriving ! - litter of 15 , just magine the amount of work behind that . As a serious breeder you will have to show, go trialing ( coursing ) with your dogs to a certain degree , there is the cost you had with the parent(s) - andand and
And yes , if it was to the point of sheer survival of the breed ( as it must have been during the worldwars ) one can do things much simpler and cheaper and it will/has to work , too - but ,as this is not the case and we have the option , I would want things to be done in the best possible way - those wonderful hounds deserve nothing less.
Another point with regards to puppy prices is , that someone who wants a giant breed dog like a deerhound is , will have to be prepared , that it can be very costly to keep them - vets tend to take huge amout of money here , usually seemingly increasing with the seize of dog you bring in . So , if they can not come up with the , here now
" usual " I think can $1500.- to 2000.-- for a pup , how do they think to be able to afford them for all their lives ? Even just a regular spay ( here almost the norm ) for a female would be around $ 400.-- meanwhile , I just inquired about rabies boosters for 3 of mine and it is around $90.--per hound .....

I appreciate what you are saying and I feel that it's a good thing that people like you are doing the best for their hounds in all ways,from start to finish.
I do however have two points to raise.

1: As I said in my earlier post by keeping the price of pups high potential buyers and future breeders are restricted to those who have serious money. If potential breeders are limited then it is common sense that the genepool will be restricted to those that can afford to purchase and rear pups to the required standard.
If this is the case then genetic defects such as "livershunt" ,"heart disease" and "factor 7" may well become concentrated in the "phenotype" (see working ability before it went wrong for definition). If this happens then extra testing will become necessary and the prices go up.. Its a vicious circle.Btw I have never heard of these ailments before but then my D/H is not KC reg and cost me £80.
2: I breed and show horses and ponies for a living and please consider the following:
Horses are 3 before you can breed them.
They need their feet doing every 8 weeks from birth at £20 a time.
They need mucking out and feeding every day and cost more than a dog to feed.
Covering a mare by a cheap stallion is £200.
The gestation period for a horse is 11 months during which she needs extra feed and her feet doing every 8 weeks.
Horses only have one foal not 4+ as in dogs.
Foals should be handled and "halter broken" as early as possible.
To make a sensible horse they too should be shown and entered into stressful enviroments from an early age.
Foals need extra feed and their feet doing every 8 weeks.
To do this properly takes several months.
By the time they are 3 years old it is time to get on them and ride them.This can take several weeks.
Horses need a lot of ground to run about in.
By the time you sell them you are lucky if you get £1500 for each one.
Vets fees on top of that...

But there are more horses than Deerhounds out there so that keeps prices down. It seems to me that certain people like to keep prices high at the expense of health... I make a living from horses at good prices with no health problems, why can't D/H breeders do the same?

hairybeasty wrote:


But would you rather we reared our pups cheaply and didn't do the health tests and you were offered a cheap puppy with the potential to cost you a lot of money in vets bills throughout its life? The Deerhound Club requires its members to test pups for liver shunt (a congenital, rather than genetic, life-limiting defect) before offering them for sale; affecteds should never be sold. FVII status can be established by a DNA test if you really need to know and heart testing is available for adult Deerhounds via your vet. All of these tests cost money; serious money in the case of heart testing.

Stud fees are not cheap, especially for a dog who is siring good quality stock, then your bitch will need extra food to grow her litter and if things go wrong at whelping and she needs a section in the middle of the night, your vet bills are going to be huge - these have to be factored into the price of a puppy.

When you're rearing a litter of Deerhounds, your bitch needs extra best quality food (up to three times her usual intake) to provide for her puppies and the pups need top quality food to fuel a phenomenal growth rate. Vaccinations plus worming the pups every two weeks isn't cheap either. Then there's KC registration to pay for. Plus if you've ever reared a litter you'll know just how much actual hard work is involved in looking after a bitch and her pups. So by the time a pup is ready to go at around twelve weeks, the breeder has invested quite a lot of time, effort and money into it. A modest return on effort doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

I think as a puppy buyer, i would sooner pay that bit extra
for a puppy thats had the relavent tests done - than one that hasnt.
especaly liver shunt test, when i was handed laylas paper work, it was the first thing i did check for, if she hadnt of had it done, i would have had the shunt test done
for peice of mind, ive seen what a dog has to go through with having a liver shunt.

hairybeasty think of it this way, you go out and buy a pup,
it cost you x amount, but a few weeks or a few months later
it becomes ill, vet diagnoses liver shunt,
now depending on how bad the shunt is, treatment ranges from just controling the diet
to surgery, in some cases nothing can be done and its better to put the pup to sleep,
in the mean time youve spent a fortune on tests x-rays and scans,
your so peed and mad, you would end up telling everyone the breeder isnt a good one,
because theyve not done the tests, that could have saved all this heatache in the first
place.

At the end of the day, if the relavent tests are done,
and any pups that do have health defects are never used for breeding or even pts
then in the long run - any health problems are kept to a minimum,
although you could never realy eradicate all health problems, at least its kept to
a minimum.

I know this is not a deerhound, but please have a read,
it does show what one dog go's through, because of a liver shunt
and how much it could end up costing.

Twiggy touched so many people - in so many ways.
www.rochdale-dog-rescue.com/twiggy.html

I'm with Sid and Chook on this one.I understand what hairybeasty is saying about the cost of puppies,Deerhound puppies are expensive certainly in comparison to some other breeds.For me though,i would sooner pay the extra,and know that the breeder has taken care regarding the breeding stock,has shown good husbandry rearing the puppies,and has carried out the basics in terms of first innoculations and shunt testing.Good breeders,of which we have many within the breed,will always be there to offer support and advice if it's needed.

We are very lucky here in Australia; I don't think we have any recorded cases of liver shunt or Factor VII. We are currently making moves to instigate a voluntary heart-screening program.
If I were to import a dog or even semen from overseas, I would like that dog to have been health tested for all known hereditary diseases.
I understand that this would cost me more than an untested dog, but I see too many dogs everyday at work, suffering terribly from hereditary diseases such as PRA that are preventable.
The actual purchase price of a pup is only a very small fraction of what you will spend on it over it's life.


Personally, if/when I breed, my pups will come from fully health tested parents and raised indoors (probably on the couch!!). My pups would be vaccinated, microchipped, I would provide information on diet, exercise, heath, etc. I would provide copies of pictures of both the parents. I would also give membership to the Deerhound Club for one year to encourage participation in fun events.

I would also offer 24 hour, seven day a week phone support to my puppy buyers. I would like to maintain a good relationship with them. I would also want the pup to come back to me (at any age) if the buyers were no longer able to keep the dog, for whatever reason.

Just a quick aside - Deerhound pups here in Australia cost between $800 to $1000 (roughly... Jacobite, please correct me on this if I am wrong).
There is little or no profit made on breeding Deerhounds here.

AUD$1000 = 580 Pounds Stirling
890 American Dollars
660 Euro