As the "Guardian" of all "pure" dog breeds,the KC takes money from all members and breeders.
With all the debate on accredited breeders,hereditary diseases,fake papers and stolen puppies,the question is this:
Is the kc fee worth the postage price?

NO!!!!

Now then hairybeasty, if you continue with these contentious topics I shall have to promote you from Mr. Grumpy to Dr. Grumpy as you are becoming a specialist in @#$%-disturbing

I have noticed similar questions raised on a US chat site, more in connection to lure coursing as people there are debating whether the AKC costs involved are worth it, or is that organization grubbing for money. And in Canada, our own CKC is in financial trouble and scrambling to reorganize so as to be cost-effective. In fact we are getting monthly updates from the treasury section telling us specifically what they're doing to address problems.

My own feeling is that of course these organizations are worth it. I'm not familiar with some of the UK issues raised, so can't address particulars, but generally speaking these clubs protect the breeds, they keep records on individual dogs (pedigrees), they hold breeders to codes of practice/conduct, they have some disciplinary powers, they train judges, they inform the public, etc.

Without them, who knows if your purebred Scottish Deerhound is truly what the breeder says? When you're dropping big money on a purebred dog the Kennel Clubs provide assurances that you're getting what you pay for. You actually get a registered microchipped dog with papers and a paper trail for that matter if disputes arise.

Is it the services that people don't support or is it the fact that they cost money? I'm guessing the latter.

No problem here with the cost issue.
All I'm asking is whether the fact that a dog is KC registered is a guarantee that it is healthy,fit for purpose,is not stolen,free from health defects,has not had it's identity swapped for that of another dog or dogs,etc....
There are no microchipping laws in the uk for dogs,D/h pups (kc apparently)are available for £200,but what is the guarantee these pups are genuine? Have they been id swapped? Would you know?

I tend to agree with Ironstone, Kc's do have their uses, keeping records, training judges, etc., but they certainly do charge like a wounded bull for anything they do. The only way you can definately tell if the dog and bitch on the piece of paper are in fact the parents of the pup you buy is to have them all DNA tested. A lot of people over here are doing this but in an ad hoc sort of way, the ANKC doesn't seem to have got involved yet, no doubt they will when they figure out how to charge us for it!

Pam

hairybeasty wrote:


Unless you did DNA you would never know,
i know of someone who sold a couple of doberman pups, think he sold them for
around the 300 mark, i can garentee he told the new owners they were
full dobermans - but with out papers, the pups looked like dobermans and acted like the
breed aswell, what the new owners wouldnt have known is ........ the mother was a terrier,
the father was the doberman, the pups were the spitting image of the father,
it wouldnt have been that hard to pass them off as another bitch's pups, problem was
he didnt have another bitch with papers or a dog with papers.

The downright unscrupulous, like the poor, are always with us - see Chook's post above. Deception is deception, no matter how you dress it up. However, the UK Kennel Club suffers from its nineteenth century gentleman's club ethos. It is a combination of a canine registry and governing body and private members social club and that's really where the problem lies - the ordinary breeder and exhibitor has no say in how the dog game is run, but has to pay out handsomely for the privilege of registering puppies. Perhaps we need a Boston Tea Party moment.

It may not be perfect, and it is probably a bit of an oldboys club, like most golf clubs. But it gives the best assurances available, and so greatly reduces the risk of buying something that isn't what its perported to be, and that surely is the reassurance a buyer is wanting... The other aspect in choosing a puppy is on the buyers side. One has to use ones own common sense.. If something doesn't look, sound, or feel right, then don't commit without further investigation. I doubt that anyone selling an £800 dog/hound for £100 would necessarily be clever enough to get everything wrapped up convincingly enough to fool a discerning buyer looking for a pure bred dog. Most pure bred buyers look into details pretty thoroughly I would guess - different if you are buying a pooch, your expectations are lower.

I think ones 'gut feeling' is a good guide when choosing a breeder or puppy, and with the backing of the KC it adds just that bit extra. So for now, it's the best we have.

At least with DH's the breed is pretty much pure and unaltered.

Chris

Hooks and crooks in every walk of life, dog folk no different. The KC records are paper records and as such can be dodgy. Sid has hit the nail on the head 'Outdated and out of touch with what is required'

I don't know the answer but science has adavanced enough to make DNA a useful tool. If folk lose faith in the KC system it will crash, they would do well to kick themselves in to touch before that happens.

With nothing in place what are we left with?? No registered breeds, just lots of types of dog. I think they've got a massive job on their hands and the sooner they start the better.

I'm not sure about the knee jerk reaction to health screening, it seems to have gone to the other extreme, everyone going all out to check for everything. The vets must be raking it in.

feldandjack wrote:


I think a hell of a lot of people have already lost faith in the KC,
they lost a lot of people after that program that came on.


Sid yes he was downright unscrupulous, needless to say he did end up in jail,
for something else though, but thats the type of person he was - if he could make a quick buck for nothing, he would do.

Ironstone wrote:


Thanks Ironstone,that's the nicest thing anybody has said to me for days....

So Dr Grumpy it is then!

hairybeasty wrote:





You need to get out more

You rumbling at the bridge on Sunday?

This is the opposite reaction to the one I was expecting on this topic....thought the concensus of opinion would be "dont knock the kc",and although some have said the kc gives the best protection available,I contend that it gives no protection at all....
There is nothing to protect the buyer,breeder,or dog from disease,id swapping,fake papers,or badly bred stock...so why do people continue to pay out to this outdated organization?

Because thay have no other choice,
if they want to register there pups, then who else are they going to go to.

That is more or less my point..the kc offers no benefit to the members,it's just a self perpetuating organization that exists to take money for nothing...(this is not the opinion of the site,just a topic for discussion)and it offers none of the safeguards that one might expect from a responsible organization ready to take on the next 50 years....
As a breed society it fails also,some minor regional horse societies are far more demanding...in order to register with the scottish sports horse society...all stallions must be graded by a panel of 4 judges before a licence is granted to breed from it,and the pass mark is 75%....
So apart from taking money from breeders,what else does the kc do to earn the membership fees?

You're confusing customers with members, Hairybeasty. The KC, as I said before, is a private club for those and such as those, but it also acts as a registry and regulatory body and that's where the problem lies - there is no input from ordinary dog people. Membership is limited to 750 if memory serves and is strictly by invitation only, therefore the breeder or exhibitor in the street has no say in how its affairs are run, and no representation on the various committees. Not democratic at all and I'm on the 'Things need to change' side of the argument, but we're dealing with a great big dinosaur here and getting it to change its ways will realistically be a very slow process. It's only in the last forty or so years that they were dragooned by Florence Nagle, a very determined lady in Irish Wolfhounds, into accepting women members, so gods know how long it will be until they accept the ordinary punter. If they decouple the private club from the business, then they're likely to lose their London base or have to put their membership fees up considerably and they don't want that, so they're caught between a rock and a hard place, but at the same time they hold all the aces. (If you don't mind a mixed metaphor or several.)

That's a real eye-opener Sid!! This a part of the KC that I never even realized existed...I thought it was a breed registration organization only...didnt think it had limited membership!!
What a stinker!!!

Sid wrote:
[quote]You're confusing customers with members, Hairybeasty. The KC, as I said before, is a private club for those and such as those, but it also acts as a registry and regulatory body and that's where the problem lies - there is no input from ordinary dog people. [quote]
So what is the difference between members and customers?
And where does the average breeder/owner fit in the scheme of things?

Members are just what it says on the tin - members of the KC, a private club with its premises in Clarges Street, London. They don't even need to have an active interest in dogs to be invited to join. They are eligible to sit on the various committees that regulate showing, breeding, agility, field trials, obedience and any other recognised canine activity/sport. Customers are people (normally breeders and new owners) who pay to use the services provided by the registry (offices in Aylesbury) - puppy registration being the main one that concerns us here. Joe Customer has no say in how the dog game is organised unless he is also a KC member and sufficiently interested to be a committee member. Weird, huh?