I'm going to bite the bullet and post this. I have an issue with Lockie. In all the years I've had Deerhounds, Lockie is the first male. At home he is the most wonderful dog, affectionate, obedient and general comedian. He plays with the girls, but tends to be too rough for Xena with her aches and pains. He is also a brilliant watch dog.

My problem is with other dogs and I think particularly with males though it has happened with females. When we are at shows (or anywhere I guess)if a dog gets close, he will lunge at them. No growling, no lip lifting, just a full on lunge. I have to be on guard all the time, watching for any approaching dogs, and when one does approach I have to block him and shove bait under his nose to distract him. He shows body language by lifting his ears and getting puffy. This started when he hit puberty, he is now 25 months. The crux came at last show where there was a 5 1/2 month rough collie, beautiful little dog, I was taking Lockie to the ring when he started sniffing the pup. Now I was watching him carefully and had a tight hold on the lead, I thought it was a good thing that he was willing to sniff,but after a few sniffs he did the same thing giving the pup a nip This behaviour is totally unacceptable and I don't know how to stop him. We can avoid as much as possible but this won't solve the problem. When waiting to go in the ring I have to distract him with bait but this causes problems when gaiting him as he is looking at my hand which makes him sidle. He is also ok in the ring during Group line up, again because I have bait.
We are going to start obedience to try and socialise him more. We would have started this week except there is a car rally on and they are closing our road.
He was socialised as a pup but I think this is a testosterone problem. I feel like I have gone way wrong somewhere along the track. None of his siblings seem to have this dominance issue and I am also concerned about neck injuries having to reef on his neck to prevent him from causing possible harm
I am open to suggestions

I would suggest a Dogmatic halti. I got one for my lad because he was pulling as a youngster but it is amazing for control. He can not do anything I don't want him to do. I can get up close to any dog and he is powerless. He is a lovely lad and hasn't got any agression but I still use it. It doesn't restrict his head when he is walking, he can sniff the floor etc no problems. Also it doesn't cut into the eyes like some of these types of things. The lead hooks on to the ring under the chin and it just slips behind the ears.

It is very simple to slip on and off (i.e. just before going into the showring)and you can still have a collar and lead around the neck as well if you wish so that would be ideal for you.

I got a lovely black leather one with brass fittings from here:

www.dogmatic.org.uk

I could not believe the difference it makes. Who ever invented it is a genius. My OH doesn't use it on him but I love it.

I use haltis on both of mine too,I used to have rope slip leades,but Megan is a puller.I couldn't believe the difference a halti makes.
I've never had an 'entire' male though,but as I now have Foggy,I will be interested to learn from more experienced owners,their thoughts and possible solutions.

I presume since you want to show him, you will want to keep in intact.
I don't know what local obedience trainers are like where you are, but most here do not have much experience in behavioural problems. You could try www.barkbusters.com.au/

By the sounds of things, I think buying a "gadget" will only mask the problem rather the resolving the root cause and it would be much nicer to not have to worry about him.

I think you are right Sam, this is a testosterone thing and I am not sure what the answer is
but I think Cicoch is righ in that gadgets are only going to mask the problem not cure
it. A canine behaviorist would probably put you on the right track to correcting this
issue Lockie has with other dogs. You didn't say whether he behaves this way with strange
bitches as well as dogs or is it just dogs?

The thing with Deerhounds, or DH people is, we like to walk where no one is, no other dogs. You have a small dog, you can take it to the park and let them play with the other dogs, we tend to like to keep ourselves to ourselves for obvious reasons, they tend not to socialise with other dogs. So when a dog not bitch) reaches 18 months or so, the testosterone kicks in and they want to be the 'big' dog. Murphy has to have a halti, I can't control him on a lead and walks are unbearable with a collar and lead. He used to drag me to meet other dogs and make me look like a fool, he even did it to my husband who weighs 14 stone and is a strong man. He isn't aggressive, but will be a bit vocal with dogs, he is also dominant, where as pre 18 months he was submissive, it is a hormone thing Sam.
Though saying this we have had Lurchers, Greyhounds (dogs) and they were let off the lead anywhere without a mishap or a fight, they never went near other dogs, not like the DH but we friendly if one came over.

My terrier decided to have a go at a Doberman the other month, it backfired, it put some manners on him (I laughed) the DH hid in the bushes and didn't jump in to save his brother, for which I was glad about, so I know he isn't aggressive. We go to a show and he can be found curled up with all the puppies, never a growl, yet he had a growl once at a dog ringside as it got a bit close, so think hormones! I am hoping someone on here is going to tell me they grow out of it....please!

I've experienced the same problem with Ben. He's normally a lovely placid dog but I've known him to growl and sometimes lunge, pin down and shout at male dogs. He was attacked a lot when he was a puppy so I've put the issue down to fear and disabling a dog before it has a go at him. It's only male dogs that he takes issue with and he seems to be very respectful of females and will even step back if confronted by one. The behaviour seems to occur when he gets eye to eye with another dog, usually a Collie or Labrador. it's not agressive behaviour as he will try to avoid confrontation and does not want to go back again to a spot where he's had trouble. Rather its dominance and a refusal to back down.

As Helen said we tend to take Deerhounds where there are no dogs so I do also wonder if lack of socialisation is the problem. I did try to socialise Ben when he was younger but he either got attacked or other dog owners did not want him playing with their dogs as he was too rough.

Helen, I think I've mentioned this before but our Terrier also attacks other dogs when he's with Ben, he's meek as a lamb when out on his own. This became so bad that we rarely take the pair out together anymore.

I think that the Dog Whisperer has the solution when he says only a pack of dogs can teach a dog the correct behavior. I've tried but as I said earlier other owners were reluctant to let a large rough young dog play with their dogs. I would be interested to know if its only owners with a single male that have this problem?

As Murray is only 11 months I have'nt run into this problem yet but what Robb said about only a pack of dogs can teach a dog seems to ring true. When I had a pack of 5 (males and females) they often had a grizzle at each other and I never interfered as it was there way of putting a pack member in its place. Murray has socialised with a lot of different dogs as he plays every morning with 7 other dogs - some dogs he is quite submissive to, some dogs have had a right go at him and some dogs he gets on fine with. I realise that this is now and things will undoubtedly change when he hits his teens. Maybe it is hormonal or maybe it is a lack of socialisation. I will be watching this thread with interest...

I think the key point out of everything thing you have said is "he is also dominant" This is very much a individual thing rather than a DH thing.
As they pass puberty they can switch from submissive to wanting to be more dominant, and you need to remind them that you are in charge.

I'm sorry to say , if they do grow out of it , it won't be for a long while yet, so you'll need to do some dominance training. It will help with
the pulling/dragging and should chill him out a bit when he's around other dogs.

They are various techniques, but it's difficult to suggest which ones would be applicable without seeing him in action.

I want to thank everyone for their imput. Sally I do know of one female Ridgie that he lunged at but the others I think are all males. It is also hard with people with terriers as they try to wind their dogs up, Lockie goes into prey mode. It is so frustrating. Lockie is going to get a bad wrap at shows and I don't want this.
The other frustrating thing , is that I want to be able to give him the choice but how can I expose him to dogs to be able to correct without fear of terrorising other dogs and causing harm? I can't put a muzzle on him at a show - we would get banned.
And apart from their internal pecking order he is not dominant with us at all, he is a big sooky la-la.
The guy who does the obedience has been in the dog world for many years, though of course that doesn't make him an expert. And I know that I still will have to keep a distance from other dogs at least initially to be able to gauge the situation.
The halti, though not a solution, could be habdy in just keeping contril. It is hard controlling a 50kg lunging dog without yanking my arms out their sockets.
Keep those thoughts coming.

Brollachan, this is really serious. It is the kind of behaviour that will put Deerhounds on the list of banned breeds, so I feel that I need to wade in. That is NOT typical male Deerhound behaviour...trust me, I have had multiple males that I have shown and coursed for almost 40 years. Deerhounds are NOT "brilliant guard dogs". This male needs to be neutered immediately and definitely not shown. He should never be bred from. His breeder needs to be notified of this behaviour so the dogs sire and dam are not used again...ditto with the siblings. In my years in Deerhounds I have seen 9 that had unreliable temperaments either with people or other dogs of the literally thousands of Deerhounds that I have interacted with. Fortunately the word soon gets out and regardless of the show record of the individual or how drop-dead gorgeous the dogs is, most (reputable) breeders shun these individuals in their breeding program. Thank goodnes! Having a giant breed with an unreliable temperament is nightmare, not to mention a liability issue wating to happen. Forget haltis etc., this dog should be neutered immediately and not ever be in public. Dominant dogs and bitches should not be bred from, in my opinion. This dog sounds to me as if he has a type of "Springer Rage" mental problem.

While it is normal for some males to get "uppity" at around 11-12 months, an immediate correction when the ears and tail start to lift should sort this out. Predatory behaviour that can't be controlled is totally unacceptable. If the behaviour doesn't moderate within a reasonable period of time (a few months), get your male neutered immediately.

To soften this, I will add an anecdote from a show that I went to with three of my males and one female. I picked up a friend who also had a male. We threw him in the back of the van to get acquainted and headed off to the show. At the show we put all the dogs in an X-pen together. An Akita breeder walked by and commented on the fact that we had five dogs together crammed into a penned area and flabergasted to see that four were males. He stated that he couldn't even put a dog and bitch together. When we told him that the boys didn't even know each other and came from different homes, he was totally blown away. That is what male Deerhounds are generally like! ~Barb (Fernhill)

Thank you all for your input, but I think I need to step in for a second.

I'm sure all of these solutions are valid in the appropriate circumstances. The problem is are they valid for Brollachan and Lockie?
No one here has observed the problem or I imagine met the dog in person. We're only basing opinion on what Brollachan has written.

Would the next step be to get someone with knowledge of these things to visit a show with you and give you another take on the problem? Someone who can observe the dog directly.

Thanks
Rob

That sounds a far more sensible approach to Sams problem Rob.

I took some pics of Mack in his halti today. I normally take it off altogether when he is running about. Dan never uses it but it stops him pulling on my arm.

I like it, he can still pant, drink etc. You can see it just tucks behind the ears.



You can see how windy it was today

I tried Ben with a halti when he was younger and he used to pull hard. It certainly provides a great degree of control and worked wonders. I've not used it for a long time now as he walks well on a lead and doesn't pull like he used to. He will still pull if a small furry creature runs out in front but he seems to respond well now to my pull on the lead and soon stops. In fact he is much better on a lead than our terrier.

Also Ben will now try to keep clear of dogs acting in an aggressive way and is quite glad when I pull to keep him away, he responds and seems pleased that I've intervened. It seems that although he doesn't want to back down if challenged he would rather avoid a confrontation in the first place if possible.

Teratyke wrote:


Yes, before taking any hasty action, get a proffesional behaviourist to take a look at the behaviours he is exhibiting. You can't make a judgement on the basis of someone's description.
Especially from someone (no offence Brollacan) who may not be reading the signals correctly. I agree that one should not breed from a dog that has bad temperament, but there could be other reasons why the dog is behaving like it is.

Thank you all.
First off. Barb H, I think your reply is a tad knee jerk and over reactionary. Lockie is NOT aggressive. He is a large teenage dog "trying it on" and this behaviour will be corrected.
I voiced my concerns honestly which maybe makes it sound worse and I was hesitant about posting but I was interested to hear of others experiences and views. As for his breeding, he couldn't come from better stock and his behaviour in no way reflests on the breeder or his lines. This is a problem which for some reason I haven't dealt with properly but that is going to change.

As it happens, he has shown that his behaviour is not "aggressive" when a suicidal terrier cross came into our property today. He did bark but he did not harm the dog in any way.

My IW is at that age too now. It is just some sort of challenge that comes with male dogs. He tries to bully other dogs, including my other male dogs.
First of all, I will never accept that he hurts anothe rdog, so I keep him on th elash where there is a risk of a sudden meeting with other dogs, and if it takes a halti, it does.
I avoid haltis as people unexperienced with dogs see them as a muzzle, and thus the dog gets deprived on spontaneous human contact. Nobody go and ask to talk to a dog they think wear a muzzle.
Older experienced male dogs may help to teach in a young bully. This has happened to me two times. My first german wirehair had a hard time around the age of two years. Some day we met a very old and wobbly stray dog. But he was experienced enough to teach my young bully in, even if he'd never had a chance if they got in clinch.
several years later my dog was able to help another young bully in the same way.
One week ago, my IW suddently attacked my borzoim who is the normal pack leader. He got the borzoi down, and I got them apart. For a day or thwo my borzoi avoided the wolfhound, I thought that the wolfhound had taken over the pack leadership. But my borzoi went back, one day at feeding time he went and began to eat from the wolfhounds food bowl when i set it down. The wolfhound sat down and cried bitterly, with a waterfall out of his mouth. The borzoi had just reestablished his packleadership in a peaceful way.

If necessary, in cases where I am unable to attach his attention with positive reinforcements, i use an empty bottle from dishwashing soap, they come with top valves that can be closed. If the young bully begin to "inflate himself" towards other dogs, he get a splash of water, from the direction of the dog he tries to bully. When he backs back, and gives me attention, he is rewarded.

He is being a bit of a handful, isn't he? Sometimes it can be a viscious circle that we almost create ourselves. Dog a bit 'nosey', we tighten our hold on the lead and offer a treat with a bit of tension in our voice and posture.
Our dog actually reacts to us...'boss' is a bit stressed....not like him....hmm it only happens when other dogs are near...hmmm....I'd better make sure that they don't come near then...hmm...that didn't work too well, 'boss' is getting more stressed....I'd better up the ante......
Perhaps you could contact an APDT trainer for advice. As has been said, it needs an experienced person to observe what goes on.
As for the bait thing. Try using the bait at the end of your nose and teach a 'watch' command. (If you can clicker, even better). Give the bait when he has his eyes on your nose/smiley eyes. Gradually lengthen the time before giving the bait. Eventually you should get a watch on command and not have him following your 'bait' hand.
When meeting other dogs, try to be relaxed on the lead (Believe me, I do know how hard that is!) As any reaction is imminent, quietly turn in the opposite direction, without words or'tug' and walk away using your watch command and reward immediately when he watches.Then he is rewarded for what you asked, ie watch and not for 'tension' when he sees others.
It is a bit like housetraining as in don't comment on bad behaviour (peeing indoors) but praise enthusiastically for the required begaviour (peeing outside).
It is so hard to socialize on leads as they restrict one of our dogs 3 reactions...that is to flee. It leaves only fear or fight.Do you have people with dogs where you can walk side by side...for quite a while? Just to help you relax?

Su

Su, what you have said makes a lot of sense. I do tighten his lead and become tense and I can see how this is not helping. I also think the watch command is a great idea and will work on that.
It is nearly midnight here and I have been lying in bed for a couple of hours and I couldn't sleep. I was getting so wound up that I had to get up again. Your constructive advice has helped a lot and probably has prevented me from saying something that I might have regretted.
Thank you

Now I'm going back to bed